being asked to smile?

[pastwatcher]

I don't smile a lot, naturally, and occasionally strangers will cajole me to smile. This happens in stores, at gas stations or bus stops and other such places where I'm not actually meeting a person. I used to favor them with cold glares or looks of puzzlement, as it felt quite intrusive, but these days I might laugh briefly. I thought this was friendliness or a criticism of my lack of sufficient politeness. But after reading a recent post I wonder if this is sexist behavior. I honestly can't remember whether it came mostly from men, though it generally has been from people obviously older than myself.

So, is it? Care to jot down a quick comment of
1) whether/how much you've been asked to smile by strangers and
2) what gender you present?

It'd be fun going around telling people to smile, though it's California where they do so freakishly often. This merits further investigation. Then again, so does my math homework.

Comments

[landofnowhere]

(1) Rarely -- it's probably happened to me at some point in the past, but I can't remember any specific instances.

(2) Female, but towards the androgynous side of female.

[novalis.livejournal.com]

Yes, this has happened, but not very often. Also, I present as male, although I am occasionally mistaken for a woman when I have shaved or from the rear.

[sdn.livejournal.com]

i am female. every single person who has said "smile!" to me over the years has been male. it is an odd kind of harassment. occasionally i bare my teeth in a hideous grimace, which is fun.

[midnight-sidhe.livejournal.com]

I would not say that I am regularly admonished to smile by strangers, but it's happened to me often, and yes, it's usually a man, most often a man my father's age or older. Also, I think it's usually homeless men, who (in Philly, anyway) tend to be African-American. I am definitely female.

[timmypowg.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've ever been asked (I'm male), probably because I'm usually singing out loud and people mistake that for happiness, but on the other hand, if you have an annoyed face, it's probably a pretty reasonable thing to say? From personal experience, also, it could be that men are just more comfortable saying things like that to women than to other men.

[pastwatcher]

Well, if that's the case, it's not only invasive but sexist! I find the whole paradigm of men not expressing emotions or friendliness as much as women do problematic. It obviously restricts men as well as women, but to me this kind of example reads as control: men feel comfortable demanding that women be friendly, or rearrange her features for them, where they do not ask this of other men. Or women don't get as much personal space/privacy as men do.

[timmypowg.livejournal.com]

I think you're holding as ideal an impossible picture of intrapersonal gender relations. People treat men differently from how they treat women for a variety of reasons, and -- I can't believe I'm arguing *for* this -- this isn't necessarily outrageous. Perhaps some men prefer to be friendly with women than with men, for example, and this is nothing more than personal preference (and if women did this back symmetrically, there wouldn't be much of a problem). The thing is that people of various genders cause people of various genders to feel variously^2.

Not that I think that men calling out to women is an acceptable practice in general, but come on, you view being asked to *smile* as anything more than friendly stranger conversation? Next time someone asks you to smile, why not actually do it? You can connect with someone, even if it's only a momentary connection. (:

[pastwatcher]

I have tried smiling in response. But the request, when it comes, /always/ feels invasive. I can't think of anyone I'm friendly with who asks me to smile, though I hadn't thought of it as sexist behavior before and so far only have a few claims that it is.

Suppose it's something only men do to women--apparently it isn't, though I would be interested to see a study of the proportions. Really, think about the message that sends! To me, it says that women are only fit to be seen if they're friendly. You've heard the stereotypes that aggressive women are called "bitches" and loud women "shrews" and so on, right? The point is that a man who asks this of me is trying to control my behavior, and not willing to let me be friendly with whomever I want. If he wants me to connect with him, he can smile at me, and then it's up to me to respond or not as I like; I don't exist to please him, and to ask me to smile is rude as even Miss Manners says.

I don't really want to rant about this here, but I will, because I don't think you're hearing me. If you keep in mind that women are asked to be more decorative and less independent in our society than men are, then this is a small thing that reinforces that image, so you needn't tell me that changing it is "impossible". It doesn't really require reading feminist rhetoric to figure out the ways that many, many examples of "interpersonal gender relations" boil down to making women seem less independent, calling them not-the-norm, and so on. Chivalry is an obvious example: paying on dates and opening doors and whatnot should be fine in theory, but they come from Victorian ideas of placing women on a pedestal and medieval ideas of chivalry, which you can't argue were not misogynistic; it is telling that many men balk when women try to do the same sorts of things for them. Putting women "in their place" can be subtle, but is not always, and you shouldn't tell me that the more subtle cases don't matter. Can you give me examples of acceptable gender-differentiating behavior? Better yet, tell me where trans and queer people would fit into such a picture. My friends, in general, do NOT behave towards me in these sexist ways (I've had boyfriends who would pay once but then I might pay the next time), including you as far as I remember. That in itself shows me that the ideal is not "impossible".

[timmypowg.livejournal.com]

First, let me correct something -- I'm talking about intRApersonal gender relations, in the sense of how you feel about interacting with different genders of people, rather than how you interact with people themselves. I made up the phrase. ;p And you may call me sexist or homophobic, but I prefer the company of women. Not that I hate men or anything, but I'm more likely to become emotionally closer to women and to seek them out as friends. It shouldn't be that way, I agree, and if someone approaches me, I'll be friendly regardless of who did it -- I'll chat with the guy at the pizza place or some guy on the T or whatever, especially if they talk to me first, but I'm more likely to *want* to talk to women (but won't because I'm too shy). I don't think this perpetuates any sort of gender roles or stereotypes. In particular, I think you're reading too much into the smiling thing. Women shouldn't be treated as ornaments with permanent smiles, but hey, when some people see someone frowning, maybe they think that a little bit of positive, nonsexual attention might bring a genuine smile to that person's face! If I'm upset and someone asks me to smile, my day *will* get brighter. (And, in relation to something another commenter said, I might be more likely to give some change to a homeless person who brightens my day.) Maybe what you say is true in some cases, but I don't see anything at all sexist about this, except perhaps in who tells whom what and only because the situation lacks perfect symmetry (which doesn't mean it's *wrong* necessarily). This is entirely unlike a hypothetical scenario in which men ask women to zip down their jackets so that they can see cleavage.

As for fitting in those outside the two traditional genders/orientations, I just don't think there really is much of a picture here to talk about. If you're a gay male, for instance, you might be a little more likely to strike up conversations with other men and ask them to smile if they appear blue. What you mention about chivalry -- and you're right, I'm a strict egalitarian when it comes to relationships between me and another person -- is, I think, not very closely related to the issue at hand. I think that the part where we disagree is where you ascribe a sexist motive or a sexist context to the "smile" thing, and then you strongly disagree with this motive or context -- I completely agree with you on that -- that I think is not actually present -- we disagree on that.

I think heterosexual men's attitudes towards women as objects of desire -- objects in the grammatical sense, not the inanimate sense -- aren't likely to change to something gender-neutral, ever. Their views about what other people are expected to do can and should change to something gender-neutral, and I -- and, apparently, you -- am personally working towards that goal. I think it's OK for men to prefer the company of women, just as I think it's very much not OK for people of any gender to automatically assume that the man pays for dates and talks about "man things" in the drawing room while the woman sews and gossips and just looks pretty for the man.

[pastwatcher]

Fair enough. Actually I'm not yet convinced that it *does* follow a sexist pattern of behavior. I just thought from your first comment that you were claiming it did--that is, that you thought men tended to do this to women.

[midnight-sidhe.livejournal.com]

Just for the record: sexist or not, I also find it invasive. I don't mind being hit on by strangers nearly as much as I mind being told to smile.

[lowellboyslash.livejournal.com]

I'm late to the game, but thank you, THANK YOU for writing this. I'm amazed by how often women are told that these daily oppressions "don't matter" or are something they should just "get over." People should have their attention called to their behavior. This is something that can change.

I'm sorry, timmypowg, but it is an invasion of personal space, and it is sexist. All the good intentions in the world wouldn't make it all right for a strange man to put his arm around me in a bar; why would they make it okay for him to invade my mental space and force his idea of what women should be like onto my behavior?

Lastly, to answer your survey: I can't ever remember someone asking me to smile in public. However, the times I've been called "sir" by mistake are too numerous to list, so take that as you will.

[pastwatcher]

Yay, thanks for answering, and the support! :) I think timmypowg may not see your comment, though.

ophblekuwufu thinks the fact that I'm tiny may compound this and other issues when I'm dealing with strangers: they're much more likely to treat me as if I'm a delicate young lady, if not actually a child. I think most people get over this when they know me, or even see me in motion for long (passersby here often seem startled by how fast I move, much to my amusement; I don't know if storyspoiler experienced this in LA). I internalized the "I'm Madeline" chant very young, and didn't even realize how tiny I still looked until I saw myself in a Noteables group song video.

[midnight-sidhe.livejournal.com]

Next time someone asks you to smile, why not actually do it? You can connect with someone, even if it's only a momentary connection. (:

When it happens to me, I usually do smile back - not because I want to, but because I have no spine. It's never a genuine smile, though; it's a nervous reflex that probably doesn't reach my eyes.

If I'm going to connect with someone, I want to connect with the person because I want to, not because I'm being ordered/forced to. Being ordered to smile feels invasive, regardless of the intentions of the person (or, in my case, even whether I know the person). What if I am not smiling because I don't feel like smiling?

[pastwatcher]

If I'm going to connect with someone, I want to connect with the person because I want to, not because I'm being ordered/forced to. Being ordered to smile feels invasive, regardless of the intentions of the person (or, in my case, even whether I know the person). What if I am not smiling because I don't feel like smiling?

Exactly!! Ironically, in response to this similarity of sentiment I feel like smiling at you. :)

[midnight-sidhe.livejournal.com]

LOL! :-)

[wombatfugue.livejournal.com]

When my friend moved from Russia to the US, her face hurt from having to smile so much. And a friend from China said that if you smile to strangers on the street, people will think you're crazy. There seems to be a weak social norm in America to put on a happy face for the world. Asking someone to smile in America is a little like asking them to say please or thank you, or to remove the spinach from their teeth.

To answer your questions:
1) Never, as far as I remember.
2) Male, though occasionally mistaken for female.

[silkspinner.livejournal.com]

1) Yeah, that happens. It's generally men.
2) Female

I find it terribly irritating, but then my ideas of what constitutes an intrusion are, um, abnormally stringent. So I might not be the best judge.

[pastwatcher]

"but then my ideas of what constitutes an intrusion are, um, abnormally stringent."

Hmph. While this is probably literally true, I think that you're using "abnormal" with a negative connotation here that it does not deserve. That is, you may set wider boundaries than many, but it seems obvious to me that they rarely demand more than basic respect should make the default. (The question of when/how to lower boundaries with familiarity is different.)

[midnight-sidhe.livejournal.com]

This is actually a major issue of mine: people seem to have this idea that their right to violate one's boundaries takes precedence over one's right not to feel violated. I don't understand their reasoning, but it's something I've encountered a lot over the years.

[silkspinner.livejournal.com]

"Abnormal" in this case being shorthand for "idiosyncratic preference having relatively little to do with prevailing standards of decency, and likely to make a lot of people sad if implemented as social code."

But that is neither here nor there. I think you're right about the smiling, I just felt compelled to add the caveat.

[dergnoam.livejournal.com]

1) Never by a stranger. On rare occasions by distant acquaintances.
2) Male

Definitely seems to be a gender based thing to me, and therefore problematic.

I'd bet theres a regional component too. Holding doors for instance. In the South (or so I'm told) people will be mildly annoyed if you don't hold open doors for them. Whereas people around here might be annoyed if a stranger does.